by Louis Alfieri of Raven Sun Creative and Amy Kole
Amy Kole: Among all the wonderful experiences I had working in Japan (and Louis, I’m sure you can echo similar sentiments), making friends from other countries, getting to learn from, and experiencing the culture side-by-side with them, was the greatest. Both from a work and a personal perspective.
Bai Wanpeng, former general manager creative group, Evergrande Tourism. puts it perfectly:
“Creating exciting and fantastic experiences with my friends and team members gives me wonderful memories. It makes me feel like being a child again imagining the magic in the world. We take a journey together, and finally, we bring that magic into the real world. That’s beautiful.
“On this journey, in most cases, I have found people misunderstand each other because of the language gap. I must make sure I can understand the points of each side, and use their language to explain the meaning to the other side.”
Louis Alfieri: Beautiful indeed. In parts 4 and 5 of our East-West series, we have assembled an amazing array of international perspectives, talent, and insight to share with you from experts in Asia.
Listening to understand
LA: As a basic premise for the next chapters in our discussion I want to table an important concept that working internationally has taught me. I believe this will be invaluable to our audience:
“Most people do not listen to understand. Most people listen to respond. There is a massive difference between the two.”
It is critically important to understand the results that come from that difference.
We invited bilingual executives, creatives, and interpreters whom we’ve had the pleasure to work with to share their own experiences in translation as the bridge between two cultures. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word interpreter.
The work of these remarkably talented people is so much more than merely translating terms and words literally. This is a cultural art form. One where complex ideas, emotions, creative principles, and technical challenges are being communicated across cultures, belief systems, idioms, and lifelong understandings. I am ever an eager student in these situations and am also eager to share them with you.
In our series on East and West, we’ve started to uncover and dissect the commonalities––and differences–– to not only designing in different countries but conducting business as well. Neither of us would claim to be absolute experts on the social or cultural nuances of a particular country or region.
Translation and interpretation are vital
AK: We are sharing our experiences from vocational journeys. As ex-pats and international designers and consultants, we continue to rely heavily on others. They help us to tread unfamiliar territory in creating wonderful worlds around the globe. This creative journey, cultural exchange, and ability to create multi-culturally is what brought us to work in new countries in the first place.
LA: Among the wonderful people we had the pleasure and honor of working alongside, the translators who were a part of the process became the voice to our visions and ideas. We have learned that while ideas are universal, words are not.
It is thanks to many wonderful translators that concepts are able to get off the ground and agreements reached.
Without these talented and remarkable people, nothing I have done internationally could have been achieved. I am, and always will be, indebted to every one of them. There are many experiences that Amy and I can share from our times as ex-pats. But this only reflects a small sliver of the experiences that true natives of each culture can speak to, both from a storytelling and lifestyle perspective.
AK: We knew early on in this piece that our words are just one part of this series. We invited former translators whom we’ve had the pleasure to work with to share their own experiences as the bridge between two cultures.
Guest contributors
LA: Our esteemed guest contributors for the next several episodes of our conversation are as follows:
Noriko Otomo
Noriko Otomo started off at Universal Studios Japan as a translator. Then she was promoted to senior show writer for Entertainment Creative. Here, she writes, translates, and copy edits scripts and narrative designs in both English and Japanese.
She is a master of storytelling in both tongues, and her skills go beyond the paper.
Noriko can weave a story in both English and Japanese, flawlessly translating at the speed of her imagination as she effortlessly describes exactly what the writing team envisions to whoever sits across the table from her.
Chizuru Horiuchi
Chizuru Horiuchi has been with Universal Studios Japan as a translator since 1999 when the park first opened. She has worked with a number of departments within the company including Entertainment, Design Studio, and Entertainment Creative. Chizuru is responsible for translating English to Japanese, and English to Japanese.
It’s no small feat when you consider that she’s sometimes handed a full script to translate at once! Chizuru is responsible for the translation of any documents that go across teams. This includes emails, narrative designs, show scripts, operational signage, studio guides, and anything that needs to be read in meetings or in the park.
Bai Wanpeng
Bai Wanpeng is the former general manager creative group for Evergrande Tourism. He has extensive multinational experience with more than 10 years as a senior creative executive with The Evergrande Group.
Bai’s background encompasses expertise in resort development, design management, and architecture throughout mainland China.
Most recently he was focused on the Evergrande Group’s development of a tourism portfolio throughout mainland China. Here, he led the development of an internal team and worked with more than 600 global design teams, consultants, manufacturers, engineers, and specialists to launch a new tourism division aimed at deploying numerous entertainment projects simultaneously.
“My personal interests and passions are in novels, movies, animation, video games, and new and developing forms of entertainment,” he says.
“I also love history and cultural study. It is my belief that the theme park is a comprehensive form of entertainment. I want to create a unique guest experience that could bring people much deeper and more intimately into the stories of novels, movies, animation, and video games.
“My greatest dream is building and working with a world-class team where I can contribute to making this dream a high-quality reality.”
Dai Yenchi (Peter)
Dai Yenchi (Peter) is an international linguist who studied at the University of Michigan. He has taught English throughout the Guangdong province of China. He now specializes in entertainment projects.
Dai Yenchi’s most recent projects include working on several international games in development, as well as 16 major mixed-use resort and entertainment destinations in China for Evergrande Group.
He has worked with more than 600 different foreign vendors across many different disciplines. This includes architecture, writing, story structure, branding, concept development, IP, gameplay, show sets, media, ride vehicles, and assets for the show set environment. He has also worked to interpret numerous industry books, papers, and lectures for the Chinese experiential industry.
Yong Xie
Yong Xie is the senior translator for the Hainan Island International Sports Industry. Possessing advanced degrees in English and Hospitality, he is an avid global traveller. Yong Xie has worked extensive study and work experience in the United Kingdom and the United States.
His expertise is in working with complex sporting assignments, film crews, event producers, and documentarians in association with athletic and competitive events.
He is a member of the championship crew for Team Hainan competitively sailing across the Atlantic Ocean.
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob Tomson)
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob Tomson) is an award-winning freelance director, filmmaker, and 3D media creator. He has advanced degrees in 3D design, VR, and modelling.
Qin Zhi Bo is a passionate creative working extensively in the Chinese TV, animation, and entertainment industry. His current focus is on leading game design, advanced motion capture, and leading the development of a virtual production studio with Tencent affiliates in Shenzhen and Beijing.
His aspirations include making a film trilogy, a historically inspired IP that he has written and developed.
Lim Yu Yue
Lim Yu Yue is a producer for EtonHouse International Education/Asia Pacific Client Liaison. She is also a coordinator for Raven Sun Creative. She has over 14 years of managerial experience in Southeast Asian and International creative production of events, experiences, and destinations.
Lim Yu Yue is based in Singapore and works throughout SE Asia. Her experience with celebrities and entertainment groups has led to her extensive skill set and valuable knowledge across all aspects of creative production and stage management.
Fluent in English and Mandarin, she has a deep understanding of different nationalities’ cultures. Thus, she is able to offer proactive solutions in high-pressure environments under very tight schedules.
As a translator or cross-cultural designer, do you consider yourself a storyteller?
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): Yes, I think I am a storyteller. I love to write different stories. They appear in my head, usually inspired by dreams or life experiences.
Chizuru Horiuchi: Sometimes, yes. But as a professional interpreter/translator, I need to stay as neutral as possible to bridge the communication gap. That means I would not tell my own story, but find the best way to convey the others’ stories.
Dai Yenchi (Peter): Yes, when I am allowed to write my own story, not simply translating others’.
Bai Wanpeg: Yes. Before I work on a themed entertainment project, I must consider all the scenes and experiences as parts of a collective story.
I meet people all over the world and experience different cultures. So, I can use that knowledge and experience to tell or communicate a story.
Yong Xie
Yong Xie: As a translator, the job itself requires accuracy, so I don’t consider myself a storyteller. However, in the process of translation, I meet people all over the world and experience different cultures. So, I can use that knowledge and experience to tell or communicate a story.
How do you use your skills as an interpreter to bridge cultural divides and misunderstandings?
Bai Wanpeng: In most cases, I have found people misunderstand one another because of the language gap. I must make sure I can understand the points of each side. Then I can use their language to explain the meaning to the other party.
If there are different opinions that cannot easily be resolved based on the different cultural backgrounds, then I often ask that we step back and think about the local market, and where the project is located. This approach often leads to a range of expressions and conversations that help establish a common understanding between the participants.
Chizuru Horiuchi: I work to listen to others with no bias or assumptions. Then, while interpreting, I use my knowledge and background understanding to help support my output. Yet I always do so without bias. My output must always be exactly as the speaker says.
Dai Yenchi (Peter): I like to see myself as a helper and mediator between two conflicting parties because that’s when I’m most useful. In my opinion, misunderstanding happens not because we are unable to understand each other, but because we don’t feel comfortable trying to understand each other. That’s when I jump in and hook them up.
Drawing parallels aids translation
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): As I have never lived in any other countries, I apply my creative skills and bilingual understanding to help foreigners understand why a Chinese audience may be acting a certain way, or be open to responding to that.
I like to draw parallels that both groups can connect with. For example, watching the movie Robocop and a local TV show called Zheng Da Zong Yi, (which is still on) as a 9-year-old child in China, my friends and I felt something strong. Together these experiences had an impact that punched through in my mind.
I think the 80s generation in China, through our global exposure, came to better understand Western storytelling in China. We started to think about the different experiences and stories people share that are different all over the world.
Chinese culture is rich and full. However, it is not something that is clearly understood by others, or easy to communicate.
Yong Xie: I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to travel and work all over the world. During this time I have experienced different people, cultures, and methods of doing things. I draw on those previous lessons and opportunities as a huge advantage to help build understanding and consensus amongst international teams.
How do you educate those you are working with (internally and externally) about the differences in culture and how those may be solved in experiential design and operations?
Bai Wanpeng: I prefer to begin by providing a variety of pictures, videos, and graphics to show the differences in intent, cultures, and style. It’s similar to how we learned the history of design; how our teacher taught us the differences between the types of Greek columns and periods of architecture.
My role is to begin with illumination and education. From this basis, we build a common understanding that leads to more complicated challenges and solutions.
Dai Yenchi (Peter): I find that having conversations at dinner, on a walk after lunch, or over a cup of tea, casual conversation gives us the right environment to make breakthroughs. Sometimes, that intimate setting is more productive than in the large group setting.
Still, it is difficult to make people see the difference in perspectives. Especially when it comes to design issues since many creatives are so deeply rooted in their own perceptions and experience that no one is willing to open up and listen.
Sometimes the difference in perspective has nothing to do with a cultural difference at all. Instead, it is totally rooted in a person’s opinion or beliefs.
Finding a solution together
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): Personally, I prefer never to educate anyone. I just discuss what I know and what others know in the hopes that we can collaborate to choose a better solution together.
Often, I consider the solution of the project according to the local market. For example, on the Evergrande Ocean Flower project (Haihua Island), there is a prop included in an attraction called Ding. Almost every Chinese person knows this is a type of furnace for alchemy; this is considered a point of consensus in Chinese culture. However, how we manifest this Ding visually is not as widely shared culturally; it is open to interpretation.
This kind of cultural element, which is widely understood, but open to interpretation, is difficult to translate to visitors from other countries.
Since we were young, we have heard and read stories about a Taoist ancestor in the sky called the Tai Shang Lao Jun. He used an alchemy furnace to refine the elixir of immortality. This furnace has been interpreted throughout Chinese civilization.
Even now, when you go to some grocery markets, you can purchase incense burners that are reminiscent of this story. Some of us use this device to repel mosquitoes, or to honor ancestors.
I know Westerners use incense, yet I don’t think they have the same large-scale cultural reference point as this. So, for instance, if I were to choose to create or place an incense burner in a Disneyland, outside of any reference to China or its culture, I don’t think Westerners would recognize the connection or context to traditional Chinese culture.
Lost in translation
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): It is challenging to connect the two different contexts at the moment. There is not a lot of crossover or shared understanding of the other. You can see some of the challenges or disconnect of these contexts in the way some Chinese films attempt to emulate some Western movies or characters, and vice versa when some Western films try to emulate Chinese characteristics and folklore.
I still see opportunities to use different forms of narration and storytelling to share and re-interpret local and traditional stories
Qin Zhi Bo
In both cases we can tell something is not quite right. This is because they are merely surface representations of their cultural meaning.
Nevertheless, I still see opportunities to use different forms of narration and storytelling to share and re-interpret local and traditional stories. As Louis expressed before working with our team, when working with universal stories and archetypes, we find meaningful ways to tell these stories in a way that allows both cultures to be touched by.
Hopefully, in doing so, we help bring them closer together in harmony and understanding.
Do you only translate, or do you also feel a need to “massage” language to sound more natural?
Noriko Otomo: I do. Especially in the case of translating a story, it does not make sense just from translating words into another language. However, some translators translate just words. If they are not good at writing in their native language, the translation will not turn out as a readable one.
That is why I recommend a review by a native writer of that language. And if that person is bilingual, it is most ideal.
Lim Yu Yue: Sometimes feel the need to “massage” language so that it will sound more natural to the audience or message receivers. However, it is difficult to know “when” I should do that. It really depends on the audience, the content of the story, and the context of the situation. There are always a few questions when I am doing such a translation.
- Will I maintain or lose the original impact of the storytelling by the writer?
- If I were to translate directly, will the audience be able to understand the meaning behind this statement or idea? On a case-by-case basis, you must make decisions. Sometimes expressing both so that everyone is able to get a full understanding of the complexity of the idea.
Yong Xie: Most of the time, I will massage the language without losing the original meaning.
Often, Westerners will be very direct or harsh in a way that may not be received well. In an effort to ensure that we have a productive dialog and team atmosphere, your job as the interpreter is to maintain a very accurate creative intent, build trust, and develop a productive relationship environment.
Softening the message
Dai Yenchi (Peter): I have learned to “soften” or “massage” my language very often to create a better working environment and to lessen interpersonal and creative conflicts.
At the beginning of my career though, when I was still picking up the knowledge of entertainment, to be effective enough to make sense of what people said around me, I often said exactly what was said to me by one side or the other. I don’t have enough creative, technical, and cultural depth to negotiate these complexities. Man, I felt like I was the most hated person in the room then.
People would direct their frustration or anger at you throughout the meetings and events. It was a tough, but incredibly valuable education. It took really supportive people like Louis, who spent months working with me daily, boosting my confidence, expressing patience as my knowledge and understanding grew, to help teach me the creative, technical, and human dynamics, and likewise be very open to being taught as well.
That support and insight has been invaluable and made me so much more useful to multi-cultural teams.
Visuals support translation
Bai Wanpeng: As I am not a professional interpreter, I am not sure if massage is the right term. I find that I work to communicate the idea or emotion to the best of my understanding, using as many examples as possible so we can reach a common agreement. As Peter notes, Louis is especially good at this.
Our team on Ocean Flower included very disparate talents and various levels of experience. We spent many days and nights in meetings together building a team atmosphere of mutual understanding. Often, we were working through many complex ideas that we did not have an adequate translation for.
We did that through the use of visual examples, drawing on whiteboards, sketching, talking, and debating ideas. His use of the whiteboard was often instrumental in us all finding a way to communicate things like story structure, levels of emotion, character arcs, cause and effect, and the interrelationship of show programming to the story when we did not share a common understanding throughout the team.
What is the most often made mistake that you see when working with people of different cultural backgrounds?
Lim Yu Yue: Miscommunication is always inevitable in work. Cultural differences basically influence an individual’s interpretation of the five basic elements of communication: role, time, place, script, and audience.
Cultural differences basically influence an individual’s interpretation of the five basic elements of communication: role, time, place, script, and audience.
Lim Yu Yue
Failing to recognize the hidden discrepancies in these elements and behaving based on one’s base cultural assumptions in the target culture is very often the root of misunderstandings. Communication should be considered as a foundation when selecting stories that we know and telling them to others.
Misunderstandings can happen when taking a story from one’s native culture and applying it to people from another culture without realizing that the story may have different meanings to different cultures.
Timing is also of great importance in the collaborative and communication process. The earlier we can create this communication and bridge, the better we can solve misunderstandings before the project advances too far and other issues surface.
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): In most cases, the main mistake I see the team make is that it does not take market demand into account as the ultimate goal. Instead, they often blindly pursue a colleague’s point of view. The result of this is that the project completely deviates from market demand after it is operational.
This is a common problem in many large companies; many leaders think they are the true Superman.
A growing industry
Bai Wanpeng: The experiential entertainment industry is young and rapidly growing in China. Most people in our industry are considered designers or engineers but have come from other fields such as the internet. Their knowledge and understanding of the subject are often not adequate, especially when working with highly experienced foreign talents.
In such a case, not only do we have a language and cultural barrier, but a process, vernacular, and capabilities barrier. To overcome this, before we even begin the design work, we must get work to reach a common understanding of our talent, production, process, and expectations.
Beyond this issue of knowledge and talent, I have found there are different types of logic expressed for different types of rides and shows.
Some people just go with their feeling, instinct, intuition, and others are data reliant. Some people are open in their design process, asking for constant interaction. But others are very closed-off, not sharing what they are working on.
In the international working environment, a lack of communication, withholding information, and purely subjective methods are counterproductive to making progress and building an atmosphere of trust.
Translation help
Chizuru Horiuchi: Speaking with biases and assumptions always leads to issues and rifts between team members. These biases and assumptions result in maintaining an invisible wall in front of themselves while working with people with different backgrounds.
This situation is not exclusive to people of different nationalities; often I see the same situation happening between people of the same nationality.
It is of the greatest importance that you get to know the person you are working with. If there is a language barrier, ask for translation help and try to communicate directly there in person, on a call, or over a video conference
Niroko Otomo
Dai Yenchi (Peter): I think the most common mistake that people make when working with a culturally different partner is that they always assume the other party is able to think exactly as they do, that they are sure to agree with their personal perspective, that they have the same level of understanding. However, this is not so in most cases.
This is where an elevated level of communication and interpretation is critical to building trust and relationships.
Noriko Otomo: Lack of communication, lack of empathy, and lack of desire to conduct meaningful outreach. Assumptions or information obtained purely from websites does not help, either. It is of the greatest importance that you get to know the person you are working with. If there is a language barrier, ask for translation help and try to communicate directly there in person, on a call, or over a video conference.
Building trust
AK: In Japan and China, as Peter mentioned earlier and Noriko alludes to here, it is often critical to hold several individual meetings to build consensus and understanding.
Often these kinds of meetings should be informal, For instance, over dinner, a drink, or during a walk. This takes them away from the sphere of formality and group meetings, where cultural pressure, hierarchy, and the concept of “face” can be major obstacles to making meaningful progress and building an atmosphere of trust.
In Asia, open conflict is generally not considered socially harmonious or acceptable. Therefore, it can be preferable to take more non-linear paths to resolution,
Conflict & resolution
LA: This issue with conflict and resolution can be complex. It often extends to many facets of the project, beyond early-phase cultural and creative misunderstandings to significant long term commercial and operational issues.
Often I see multi-cultural teams in emerging markets where projects don’t plan to fail – they fail to plan adequately.
Too many assumptions are made in the hiring process based on false expectations and a lack of common understanding of methods, process, outcomes, and work/commercial culture.
Often in emerging markets, owners who assemble a multi-national team willfully ignore the talent they have hired. This is because they become confused or unsure of who to trust in this sea of these so-called experts they rushed to hire – often without adequate translation capabilities to both understand the talent they ache hired, and to exploit those resources effectively.
There is often a cultural hierarchy and prestige desire for these hired experts to justify or validate this thing that the owner/developer/government agency wants to do. They have this impression that if they hire a person with Disney or Universal experience, they now have the keys to the secret sauce of what makes those brands a success, which will then automatically migrate to themselves.
This is simply not the truth. And when elevated or discussed, it can lead to these issues of face, cultural conflict, and missed expectations.
Related issues
LA: In addition to the point above, while it is an aside from this article but no less important, I would say other major subordinate and related issues to the above include
- The concept of “brand” being ignored or misunderstood (this is a major issue plaguing many of these multi-national intercultural projects),
- The lack of a common agreement on what a truly successful destination requires in terms of “integration”.
- There is this perception that hiring a western company to A) provide a copy and paste master plan of previous successes and B) buy some pretty concept drawings from LA or Orlando firms, then let all of them go after the blue sky phase – results in some kind of lasting success. Again a myth.
- With equal measure I see the excessive hubris and overt brand arrogance of all these experts. Everyone of them is sure they are the only people who are right. They believe their way is the correct way, and that everyone else in the industry is an idiot. There is an overt desire to Americanize it, or that the Swiss way is the only way. The level of patronizing and rudeness is both incalculable and embarrassing.
Shaping the future
LA: You cannot imagine how many talking heads I have seen at these conferences using the same adjectives (awesome, incredible, amazing, cool, fantastic, magical, awe-inspiring, gigantic, epic, never before” all followed by “trust me, I’m the best at this, our world-class team”, “I did this at Disney / Universal / Six Flags”, and “this is how it’s done correctly” as though no other solution or thought would ever be seen or recognized as valid for exploration and discussion.
On a personal level, there have been moments where it is truly disheartening to hear 600 people and companies say the same thing day in and day out. There have been moments of concern that have made me passionate about shaping where our industry is headed.
AK: All of these above points place the person doing the translation/interpretation in the direct crosshairs between people who cannot speak or read the same language, are working hard, are under pressure to perform, and trying to meet numerous sets of expectations on schedule and budget.
Emotions can be high. So, we cannot understate how important these people are to making these processes a success.
What advice would you give newcomers working internationally?
Bai Wanpeng: I think when we are newcomers, we must listen carefully to make sure we understand the requirements of different sides, what they are saying, what’s their goal, and don’t rush to make the conclusion.
Dai Yenchi (Peter): I would say to learn first and devour whatever knowledge at hand. Then build upon it to discover how people from different cultural backgrounds can perceive the same principle differently.
Qin Zhi Bo (Bob): Embrace differences, understand how different we are, and try to explain your point. But the most important thing is to dig deep into your opinion. Make sure this opinion is truly a requirement for the project.
Ask yourself deeply, why is this necessary? What is the point of this statement or requirement? Is this done to win awards, to cater to winning a market? Is it worth it? The point is, dig deep enough to question the motives of things.
Truth is never as simple as it seems. Don’t stay on the water’s surface, don’t judge a nation with a single person. Dive into the water; when you swim deeper you start to make discoveries.
The exploration continues
LA: As I stated at the start, there is a difference between listening to understand and listening to reply.
I believe everything these talented and insightful multi-national team members have expressed today reinforces that concept. Further, I believe our conversation has helped illuminate the incredible importance these talented linguists and culturalists play in our collective success and the outcomes that the guests experience. These people are the unsung heroes of the multinational project process.
These people are the unsung heroes of the multinational project process.
AK: I’m excited to hear more from our guests. As we said in the beginning, your and my experiences are only glimpses into the window of the cultures and ideas of narratives and designs from the outside. This is because we are outsiders in both the most literal and metaphorical sense. And I hate it when that sounds like a bad thing.
I look forward to learning and walking away with new knowledge. As far as teachers go, we happen to be in the presence of some of the best.
It’s really amazing––so often in design, people celebrate the outcome. Yet, the process itself is its own titular journey of artistic principles blending with cultural infusions and office etiquette.
For the next part of the series, I’m looking forward to hearing more about how the intersection of storytelling, translation, and multicultural experiences merge in the workplace and within ideation across languages.
Minor edits have been made to the interviews for brevity and clarity of understanding.
